Predicting the future is difficult, but this looks like a bubble to me. Fortunately, natural gas plants are pretty cheap to build and can serve as backup power if the demand doesn't materialize....
Predicting the future is difficult, but this looks like a bubble to me. Fortunately, natural gas plants are pretty cheap to build and can serve as backup power if the demand doesn't materialize.
It reminds me of dark fiber after the dot com bubble.
As someone working in generative AI, I agree. But this is how the software world seems to work. Everyone fans out, VC money gets spread around, and in the end the losers quit and the winners win...
As someone working in generative AI, I agree. But this is how the software world seems to work. Everyone fans out, VC money gets spread around, and in the end the losers quit and the winners win big.
Regarding the article - my understanding is that data centers mostly run on solar and wind because that's the cheapest energy available.
Speaking of bubbles, during the early Obama administration, there was a cleantech bubble where investors dumped a bunch of money into it. Google’s version of that was the RE<C initiative whose...
Speaking of bubbles, during the early Obama administration, there was a cleantech bubble where investors dumped a bunch of money into it. Google’s version of that was the RE<C initiative whose goal was to make renewable energy cheaper than coal. A noble goal and I guess that’s become true. I don’t know if they had any successes that had much to do with making that happen, though?
Okay looks like it was just 7.6% of the cost of this plant. Sorry, it was a little anecdote I was given by someone on a road trip from Joshua Tree to Las Vegas and probably got twisted a little...
Okay looks like it was just 7.6% of the cost of this plant. Sorry, it was a little anecdote I was given by someone on a road trip from Joshua Tree to Las Vegas and probably got twisted a little bit by each person in the chain.
It is somewhat interesting to note that these facilities also use natural gas for energy conversion efficiency. That's not to say they are a step in the wrong direction--just that I was surprised...
It is somewhat interesting to note that these facilities also use natural gas for energy conversion efficiency. That's not to say they are a step in the wrong direction--just that I was surprised to read it. They use enough natural gas to be only 3 times more efficient than a traditional Combined Cycle Gas Turbine (CCGT) plant.
Wow, didn’t even think about that, but it does make sense Also somewhat related but I feel like saying it’s 300% more efficient bears more weight to it than 3x, right? I mean 300% more efficient...
Wow, didn’t even think about that, but it does make sense
Also somewhat related but I feel like saying it’s 300% more efficient bears more weight to it than 3x, right?
I mean 300% more efficient is a pretty good step at this point I would say. Sure the space required is probably one caveat (I assume a solar plant is larger than a CCGT) but I would say it’s at least a better use of natural gas
Yes I agree it is very much a better use of natural gas--but it makes me wonder what kind of efficiency these plants can deliver without the use of non-renewables. If the technology isn't really...
Yes I agree it is very much a better use of natural gas--but it makes me wonder what kind of efficiency these plants can deliver without the use of non-renewables.
If the technology isn't really useful without natural gas that would be unfortunate.
I'm sure many people have already run the numbers, but if we're only talking 10%, 20%, or 30% more energy at the expense of 25% CCGT's natural gas then I wonder if that extra power is really worth the extra resource cost
Hmm, that’s also a good point. I was imagining that per kWh produced (or I think plants might measure in gWh?) the natural gas consumption was 300% more efficient but honestly I didn’t confirm...
Hmm, that’s also a good point. I was imagining that per kWh produced (or I think plants might measure in gWh?) the natural gas consumption was 300% more efficient but honestly I didn’t confirm those figures in the article
Perhaps in the future this technology could be supplemented with some form of nuclear maintenance at night to eliminate the need for fossil fuels
Talking about winner and losers, in the end it's always the little people who lose. Even in the regard of solar and wind energy. For example, 3 years ago a region in the Netherlands was pushing...
Regarding the article - my understanding is that data centers mostly run on solar and wind because that's the cheapest energy available.
Talking about winner and losers, in the end it's always the little people who lose.
Even in the regard of solar and wind energy.
For example, 3 years ago a region in the Netherlands was pushing hard for green energie to lower the cost for house holds in the vicinity of a certain region.
But all of the sudden META, Google and Microsoft started to look at this area (.e. lobby and gaslight the regional mayors/legislator) to place data centers because cheap energie.
I don't recall how this ended, but if the corpo's got their way it would have been again the normal households losing. (I think the government only allowed one Datacenter)
Part of the issue is that we subsidize corporate use of energy. We should really put that the other way around, and levey some heavy taxes to make them pay more than residences.
Part of the issue is that we subsidize corporate use of energy. We should really put that the other way around, and levey some heavy taxes to make them pay more than residences.
This seems to be skipping a few steps. It's still early in the AI boom, so there is no telling how players and, most importantly, hardware will evolve. I think we are also getting to a point where...
This seems to be skipping a few steps. It's still early in the AI boom, so there is no telling how players and, most importantly, hardware will evolve. I think we are also getting to a point where renawables plus batteries are getting cheaper tha gas peaker plants. Besides: the world is trying to fase out gas for climate reasons, not increase it, so claiming that there will be a "gas boom" is a bit rich.
P.S the article also has a "owners of gas energy plants forecast an increase in a demand for gas" vibe.
Predicting the future is difficult, but this looks like a bubble to me. Fortunately, natural gas plants are pretty cheap to build and can serve as backup power if the demand doesn't materialize.
It reminds me of dark fiber after the dot com bubble.
As someone working in generative AI, I agree. But this is how the software world seems to work. Everyone fans out, VC money gets spread around, and in the end the losers quit and the winners win big.
Regarding the article - my understanding is that data centers mostly run on solar and wind because that's the cheapest energy available.
Speaking of bubbles, during the early Obama administration, there was a cleantech bubble where investors dumped a bunch of money into it. Google’s version of that was the RE<C initiative whose goal was to make renewable energy cheaper than coal. A noble goal and I guess that’s become true. I don’t know if they had any successes that had much to do with making that happen, though?
They are still making alternative energy investments, such as a geothermal energy company.
Google, or technically one of the founders, built a massive solar farm in the Southern California desert. That’s probably not the only one.
Which project is that?
Okay looks like it was just 7.6% of the cost of this plant. Sorry, it was a little anecdote I was given by someone on a road trip from Joshua Tree to Las Vegas and probably got twisted a little bit by each person in the chain.
It is somewhat interesting to note that these facilities also use natural gas for energy conversion efficiency. That's not to say they are a step in the wrong direction--just that I was surprised to read it. They use enough natural gas to be only 3 times more efficient than a traditional Combined Cycle Gas Turbine (CCGT) plant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_gas
Wow, didn’t even think about that, but it does make sense
Also somewhat related but I feel like saying it’s 300% more efficient bears more weight to it than 3x, right?
I mean 300% more efficient is a pretty good step at this point I would say. Sure the space required is probably one caveat (I assume a solar plant is larger than a CCGT) but I would say it’s at least a better use of natural gas
Yes I agree it is very much a better use of natural gas--but it makes me wonder what kind of efficiency these plants can deliver without the use of non-renewables.
If the technology isn't really useful without natural gas that would be unfortunate.
I'm sure many people have already run the numbers, but if we're only talking 10%, 20%, or 30% more energy at the expense of 25% CCGT's natural gas then I wonder if that extra power is really worth the extra resource cost
Hmm, that’s also a good point. I was imagining that per kWh produced (or I think plants might measure in gWh?) the natural gas consumption was 300% more efficient but honestly I didn’t confirm those figures in the article
Perhaps in the future this technology could be supplemented with some form of nuclear maintenance at night to eliminate the need for fossil fuels
Talking about winner and losers, in the end it's always the little people who lose.
Even in the regard of solar and wind energy.
For example, 3 years ago a region in the Netherlands was pushing hard for green energie to lower the cost for house holds in the vicinity of a certain region.
But all of the sudden META, Google and Microsoft started to look at this area (.e. lobby and gaslight the regional mayors/legislator) to place data centers because cheap energie.
I don't recall how this ended, but if the corpo's got their way it would have been again the normal households losing. (I think the government only allowed one Datacenter)
Part of the issue is that we subsidize corporate use of energy. We should really put that the other way around, and levey some heavy taxes to make them pay more than residences.
If the government kept the people’s interests as a priority then it seems like a fine situation.
This seems to be skipping a few steps. It's still early in the AI boom, so there is no telling how players and, most importantly, hardware will evolve. I think we are also getting to a point where renawables plus batteries are getting cheaper tha gas peaker plants. Besides: the world is trying to fase out gas for climate reasons, not increase it, so claiming that there will be a "gas boom" is a bit rich.
P.S the article also has a "owners of gas energy plants forecast an increase in a demand for gas" vibe.