32 votes

New EPA regulation requires coal plants in the United States to reduce 90 percent of their greenhouse pollution by 2039 (gifted link)

15 comments

  1. [12]
    updawg
    Link

    The limits on power plant emissions announced Thursday would also apply to future facilities that burn gas, requiring them to capture their emissions or to use a fuel that is nonpolluting. Gas-fired power plants that are currently in operation would be exempt.

    7 votes
    1. [11]
      BeanBurrito
      Link Parent
      Exempt and 15 years in the future. How to say you did something, without really doing anything.

      Exempt and 15 years in the future. How to say you did something, without really doing anything.

      10 votes
      1. scroll_lock
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Comment box Scope: comment response, information Tone: neutral Opinion: none Sarcasm/humor: none Gas is a different energy source than coal. It has different characteristics both environmentally...
        Comment box
        • Scope: comment response, information
        • Tone: neutral
        • Opinion: none
        • Sarcasm/humor: none

        Gas is a different energy source than coal. It has different characteristics both environmentally and health-wise. EPA has already signaled that they are skeptical of methane gas as an energy source for environmental reasons and the current administration has halted permitting of new gas plants. But the article does say that future (hypothetical) gas plants are seeing new regulations, which will limit future emissions:

        Under the new regulations, future natural gas plants that generate electricity at the rate of at least 40 percent of their maximum annual capacity would have to reduce their emissions 90 percent by 2032. New gas plants that generate electricity at less than 40 percent of their maximum annual capacity would be required to use low-polluting technology, such as energy-efficient turbines.

        Emphasis is mine. The purpose of this rule's application to future gas projects is to discourage utilities from switching from coal to gas. The goal is to get them to switch from goal to something actually green.

        As for the coal plants, this regulation compresses the timeline for 90% emissions reduction by a year (from 2040 to 2039). That is not "nothing." Remember that an EPA decision that would immediately put an economically significant corporation out of business would, generally speaking, be overturned in court just as quickly.

        But technically, the paragraph you're looking at is misleading. The real timeline is this:

        Under the plan, coal plants that are slated to operate through or beyond 2039 must reduce their greenhouse emissions 90 percent by 2032. Plants that are scheduled to close by 2039 would have to reduce their emissions 16 percent by 2030. Plants that retire before 2032 would not be subject to the rules.

        Emphasis is mine. The regulation compresses the categorization of plants with different life expectancies, but still presents a timeline for the near future. Plants that expect to exist for a long time have until 2032 (that's 8 years, not 15) to get to a 90% emissions reduction. And obviously that is not going to happen all at once; it will be incremental over the next eight years. That means that in as little as, say, one or two years, we could start to see some reductions.

        The article also writes:

        The E.P.A. also imposed three additional regulations on coal-burning power plants, including stricter limits on emissions of mercury, a neurotoxin linked to developmental damage in children, from plants that burn lignite coal, the lowest grade of coal. The rules also more tightly restrict the seepage of toxic ash from coal plants into water supplies and limit the discharge of wastewater from coal plants.

        That is significant. Again, hardly "nothing." And this part of the regulation would go into effect much more immediately than the emissions limits.

        It's worth reiterating that the overarching reason the EPA has to take such an incremental and narrow approach to regulation is that, as the article mentions, the Supreme Court restricted the EPA's ability to mandate a move away from coal.

        15 votes
      2. [4]
        devilized
        Link Parent
        What are you expecting? National infrastructure change take time. Yes, decades for stuff like this.

        What are you expecting? National infrastructure change take time. Yes, decades for stuff like this.

        12 votes
        1. [3]
          BeanBurrito
          Link Parent
          Is 15 years really necessary to install a smoke stack scrubber?

          Is 15 years really necessary to install a smoke stack scrubber?

          4 votes
          1. devilized
            Link Parent
            Most coal plants already have scrubbers. This new requirement goes beyond those scrubbers, and would require full CCS systems. This requires the infrastructure for transportation and long-term...

            Most coal plants already have scrubbers. This new requirement goes beyond those scrubbers, and would require full CCS systems. This requires the infrastructure for transportation and long-term storage or disposal of compressed CO2.

            14 votes
          2. Papavk
            Link Parent
            Yes (and probably more), since we still need to figure out where we're going to put all that CO2, how to get it there and whether it will stay down there. Not least of which how inefficient and...

            Yes (and probably more), since we still need to figure out where we're going to put all that CO2, how to get it there and whether it will stay down there. Not least of which how inefficient and costly current capture methods are.

            5 votes
      3. [5]
        updawg
        Link Parent
        We're going to land on Mars and stop global warming; it's just that we'll do it two or three presidents from now. No way anything will change.

        We're going to land on Mars and stop global warming; it's just that we'll do it two or three presidents from now. No way anything will change.

        1. [4]
          BeanBurrito
          Link Parent
          Let's terraform Earth before terraforming Mars. :-)

          Let's terraform Earth before terraforming Mars. :-)

          2 votes
          1. [2]
            TurtleCracker
            Link Parent
            Technically we’ve already terraformed Earth. Just not on purpose. One of my favorite parts of this is the impact container ships have on ocean temperatures...

            Technically we’ve already terraformed Earth. Just not on purpose.

            One of my favorite parts of this is the impact container ships have on ocean temperatures https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/ships-emissions-used-to-estimate-cloud-seeding-impact

            5 votes
            1. BeanBurrito
              Link Parent
              De-terraformed Earth. Industrialists have made the planet less habitable.

              De-terraformed Earth. Industrialists have made the planet less habitable.

              1 vote
          2. Akir
            Link Parent
            We have had housing on the moon since the 50s according to the documentary series “Hello Tomorrow!” On Apple TV+.

            We have had housing on the moon since the 50s according to the documentary series “Hello Tomorrow!” On Apple TV+.

  2. [3]
    Asinine
    Link
    I am really curious if this ends up like a California bullshit "we're going to say this but we can't actually do it" sort of proposition or if the industry will really be able to adhere to it.

    I am really curious if this ends up like a California bullshit "we're going to say this but we can't actually do it" sort of proposition or if the industry will really be able to adhere to it.

    1. [2]
      scroll_lock
      Link Parent
      Comment box Scope: question Tone: neutral, a little prodding Opinion: none Sarcasm/humor: none In what ways has California demonstrated its environmental propositions to be infeasible? It is my...
      Comment box
      • Scope: question
      • Tone: neutral, a little prodding
      • Opinion: none
      • Sarcasm/humor: none

      In what ways has California demonstrated its environmental propositions to be infeasible? It is my impression that the deadlines that are in the public consciousness have not yet come to pass.

      2 votes
      1. Asinine
        Link Parent
        They have rescinded a few that were due in 2030 and aren't possible. Some that actually got my company another foothold into a contract that will reach 2030. That being said, an easy find is here:...

        They have rescinded a few that were due in 2030 and aren't possible. Some that actually got my company another foothold into a contract that will reach 2030.
        That being said, an easy find is here: https://calmatters.org/environment/climate-change/2024/03/california-climate-change-mandate-analysis/

        Another (and I was looking for the original ones that made me cringe a year or two ago, but apparently it's still sadly ongoing): https://www.ocregister.com/2024/03/21/state-failing-to-meet-costly-climate-goals/

        One along the lines I have been looking for: https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2021-09-08/what-is-the-california-climate-credit-does-it-cut-pollution.

        Also feel free to check your "sarcasm" box, because I originally hailed from CA and hate that it's turned into what it has... ;)

        1 vote