syllo's recent activity
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club Discussion - The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin in ~books
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club Discussion - The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin in ~books
syllo Link ParentI thought the analogies were a little on the nose sometimes, specifically Thu and A-Io have a straight up proxy war using Benbilli. I didn't realize when it was published, and make me even more...I thought the analogies were a little on the nose sometimes, specifically Thu and A-Io have a straight up proxy war using Benbilli.
I didn't realize when it was published, and make me even more surprised at how competently it portrayed the Odonians and how corrupt (but not excessively so) the Ionians are. I would have thought with the Cold War would have encouraged a more Pro-America take, but I think that just makes it more interesting that they didn't.
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club Discussion - The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin in ~books
syllo Link ParentInteresting, I classified that as the denouement, I think specifically cause that's just where the book ends. We have Shevek's belief's challenged and we see the flaws throughout the book, and...Interesting, I classified that as the denouement, I think specifically cause that's just where the book ends. We have Shevek's belief's challenged and we see the flaws throughout the book, and then we end with this hopeful look to the future where the Odonians maybe start cooperating with the rest of humanity. It is definitely more interesting as a climax though, since we never truly get a giant conflict revolving around his actual thoughts, rather than what the revolutionaries on Urras are doing.
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club Discussion - The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin in ~books
syllo Link ParentI appreciate the insights! I've always been interested in linguistic fun fact type stuff (glottal stops are my favorite), but my knowledge definitely veers towards the pop science. The culture...I appreciate the insights! I've always been interested in linguistic fun fact type stuff (glottal stops are my favorite), but my knowledge definitely veers towards the pop science.
The culture shaping the language makes a lot of sense, especially with how overblown the various things I found via google search were. I still think it's an interesting concept to look at, especially from the aspect of a conlang that was tailor built for an ethical framework. The language in The Dispossessed was created by a group of Anarcho-Communists (based on a specific in-universe person and their works) when they were resettled on the the moon, with the goal of being a functional society, which explains their goal of embedding specific ethics into the language.
The quoted bit from Player of Games captures most of the idea. The other aspect is how the main character changes his strategy in a board game that is complex enough to represent reality, to go from aggressive and destructive to more cooperative and assimilating, without really realizing what he's doing until afterwards.
Seems like the real benefit of natural languages is that you can just take loaner words whenever your language is missing something? Do you have any opinions on "untranslatable" phrases (personally not a fan of that phrase) from other languages? Are people more likely to just feel the same emotions, but not express them if they don't have a specific word for it? E.g. Schadenfreude from German, or Gezelligheid from Dutch.
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club Discussion - The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin in ~books
syllo Link ParentI think it's relatively realistic. Since it takes place in a relatively small (still in the millions though, but for a whole planet each town seems pretty small), and at this point, everyone...I think it's relatively realistic. Since it takes place in a relatively small (still in the millions though, but for a whole planet each town seems pretty small), and at this point, everyone living there grew up there in the same culture. I think you see elements of it in various cultures around the world where public opinions enacts unwritten rules, for better or worse. In the US, even when companies have "unlimited" vacation, there is the social pressure from your coworkers to not abuse it, even if the whole point of it is to use it. I've also heard stories of PhD students that mimic some of what Shevek went through, where if your advisor doesn't like your paper, it's impossible to graduate/publish without caving to their whims.
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club Discussion - The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin in ~books
syllo Link ParentI really liked this quote: I like this concept of a sliding scale of two types of freedom. On Anarres, they are free to do whatever they want with his life, as long as they also do their civic...I really liked this quote:
He had not been free from anything: only free to do anything. Here, it was the other way around.
I like this concept of a sliding scale of two types of freedom. On Anarres, they are free to do whatever they want with his life, as long as they also do their civic duty. While on Urras, as long as you have a high paying job, all your other obligations are taken care of for you.
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club Discussion - The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin in ~books
syllo Link ParentFor the majority of the book, I do feel like it was a utopia. And when my opinion of that changed, was not when people were starving, but when Shevek realized they're being ruled by public...For the majority of the book, I do feel like it was a utopia. And when my opinion of that changed, was not when people were starving, but when Shevek realized they're being ruled by public opinion. I think it's easy to draw comparisons between the famine on Anarres and the Soviet Union or China and how it was a failure of the system. But for me, it showed how resilient it was, and how everyone put the society first. The only accounts of of "rebellion" there are when people, who are literally about to die of starvation, mobbing a food train. The only real failure is the lack of resources they have on Anarres.
The Rule of the Majority, and the implicit power structures of the Institute with Sabul. They mention at the beginning, everyone was keeping constant watch for hierarchies forming, and it seems we are the point 170 years in that people have gotten lax, and it is happening again. Especially with the young PDC member talkin about how they would beat up anyone who travelled to Urras and back. That being said, they still allow the Syndicate of Initiative to exist and participate in debates, even if they are shunned by everyone for it in their day to day lives. Because that is how to prevent "bad behavior" in this type of society, it's just that it gets easy to get stuck in their ways. I think the book ends on a very hopeful note here, with Shevek having a better grasp on the "Permanent Revolution" that Odo envisioned.
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club Discussion - The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin in ~books
syllo Link ParentThe plot itself was meandering, but I feel like it added to the philosophy of the anarchism of the book. Maybe because of how meandering it was, I didn't actually enjoy the "climax" of the book...The plot itself was meandering, but I feel like it added to the philosophy of the anarchism of the book. Maybe because of how meandering it was, I didn't actually enjoy the "climax" of the book very much as it felt somewhat forced. The book for me is about how Shevek experienced the world and how it affects him; what part change and what parts remain resolute. So to have him randomly join the revolution on Urras and give a speech didn't feel like it added much for me.
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club Discussion - The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin in ~books
syllo LinkLanguage Separate from my overall review, I wanted to start a discussion about Language, and how Language shapes the way we view the world I loved the notes on the Pravic language and how it...Language
Separate from my overall review, I wanted to start a discussion about Language, and how Language shapes the way we view the world
I loved the notes on the Pravic language and how it differs from Iotic or natural languages. The language that we use affects the way that we view the world. The intentional decision to combine the word for Work and Play, changes how you view both work and play. For Odonians, the work that you do is supposed to bring joy, so it makes sense to call them the same thing, as every time you think about it, it reinforces that idea. Plus, they have the separate word "kleggich" for drudgery for the things that just need to get done. Children have words "mamme" and "tadde" which are like "mamma" and "pappa" but is just for any adult acting in some sort of parental manner, since most kids are raised communally, and being raising by your birth parents is considered Propertarian.
In Ian M Banks Player of games, it touches on very similar topics. Natural Language vs constructed language. And the fact that languages have a built-in ethical framework.
...when Culture people didn't speak Marain for a long time and did speak another language, they were liable to change; they acted differently, they started to think in that other language, they lost the carefully balanced interpretative structure of the Culture language, left its subtle shifts of cadence, tone and rhythm behind for, in virtually every case, something much cruder.
Marain was a synthetic language, designed to be phonetically and philosophically as expressive as the pan-human speech apparatus and the pan-human brain would allow"Compared to the other language in the book:
Eächic was an ordinary, evolved language, with rooted assumptions which substituted sentimentality for compassion and aggression for cooperation. A comparatively innocent and sensitive soul like Gurgeh was bound to pick up some of its underlying ethical framework if he spoke it all the time.
I want to find examples of how the English language shapes thought and how you view the world. I remember reading about how in Mathematics, using 0 as a number was something that had to be discovered that then allowed new mathematical thought. Colors in various languages are a big one as well, as the delineations you have words for change how you perceive it. I've heard about blue instead of green on traffic lights in Japan because the word "Ao" refers to both blue and green shades. The word Orange didn't exist in English for a long time, so we just used the word Red instead, which is how we get the term "red-head" as well as various orange birds that are called red instead.
Interesting article on the topic: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-language-shapes-thought/. Talks about an Aboriginal community where all directions are absolute rather than relative, and because of that, they constantly know where North is. "For example, suppose I want to tell you that I saw Uncle Vanya on 42nd Street. In Mian, a language spoken in Papua New Guinea, the verb I used would reveal whether the event happened just now, yesterday or in the distant past, whereas in Indonesian, the verb wouldn’t even give away whether it had already happened or was still coming up. In Russian, the verb would reveal my gender. In Mandarin, I would have to specify whether the titular uncle is maternal or paternal and whether he is related by blood or marriage... And in Pirahã, a language spoken in the Amazon, I couldn’t say '42nd,' because there are no words for exact numbers, just words for 'few' and 'many.'" -
Comment on Tildes Book Club Discussion - The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin in ~books
syllo LinkOverall I think I liked it. I really liked the worldbuilding of Anarres and ho the book is kind of an exploration of how true Anarchy would work in a society. I feel like I didn't really get much...Overall I think I liked it. I really liked the worldbuilding of Anarres and ho the book is kind of an exploration of how true Anarchy would work in a society. I feel like I didn't really get much out of Shevek being on Urras though. You get some glimpses of how Anarres is based on his reactions to stuff, but overall it just felt like generic consumerist society. The plot itself was meandering, but I actually didn't mind it much. Maybe because of how meandering it was, I didn't actually enjoy the "climax" of the book very much as it felt somewhat forced. The book for me is about how Shevek experienced the world and how it affects him; what part change and what parts remain resolute. So to have him randomly join the revolution on Urras and give a speech didn't feel like it added much for me. The only good tidbit we get out of this is how he realizes why the military is organized in such an inefficient heirarchy "was to enable men with machine guns to kill unarmed men and women."
I felt frustrated when there were de facto government via the rule of majority and everyone caring about what their neighbors think. But I think that was the purpose. We are in the most ideal form of an Anarchic society, and but it really is true that even when there are no rules, you still have to follow customs, otherwise nothing will work. At the same time, it does still work, but the right mindset needs to be maintained. I think Shevek had the right idea of reinforcing the "permanent revolution" where the people can't become complacent, otherwise they'll get stuck in their ways. It clearly has been working for 170 years, but they talk about how during the early years, everyone was on constant guard for any hierarchies that might appear. Even though the Odonians hate the Syndicate of Initiative, it is still allowed to exist and have a right to open discussions, and they are still provided with all the necessities everyone else receives.
I liked the little tidbits about other Humans in the Universe, but we really only see the Terrans a little bit at the end. Cool how no one knows who is the "original" humans. And a bit of a flip where the Hainish are the originals instead of Terrans. It was also funny how hard they had to hit me over the head with the Terran physicist Ainsetain and his theory of relativity before I realized that they're talking about Einstein but with an alien accent.
Physics stuff was also weirdly religious/philosohical? It's a decent way to have a workaround of having ultra complex physics without actually explaining anything. But at the same time, I feel like they just throw out a few tidbits of "past, present, and future are the same" and leave it at that.
I really liked it when physical things represent the societies. We get a very "in your face" example at the beginning where they just incinerate Shevek's pajamas instead of bothering to clean them because they have so many resources, while on Anarres people have like two sets of clothes total. Clothes with lots of pockets on Urras and later Shevek keeps secret notes in the pockets; lots of pockets are a thing of propertarians. On Anarres, the color orange: "It's definitely an excremental color.. As a functions analyst I must point out that there is no need for orange. Orange servers no vital function in the social organism at either the cellular or the organic level; in which case tolderance is a less good choice than excretion. Dye it dirty green, brother!"
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club - Second nominations thread in ~books
syllo LinkThis is How You Lose the Time War by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone. Another book on the shorter side. It won the Nebula, Locus, and Hugo award for Best Novella in 2019/2020 and it's a unique...This is How You Lose the Time War by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone.
Another book on the shorter side. It won the Nebula, Locus, and Hugo award for Best Novella in 2019/2020 and it's a unique interesting read. The format is two Time Agents on different sides of the Time war writing letters back and forth to each other. In real life, it was written by a husband/wife duo, and other than having a general outline of the plot beforehand, they each wrote letters from one agent's perspective so they were genuinely reacting to the other character's letters which is a really neat way to writing a book.
(Also, after writing this, I looked at the previous nomination thread and saw it there as well, but nominating it again here anyway since I never got to discuss it with anyone when I read it back in 2020)
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club discussion - Piranesi in ~books
syllo LinkWhat do you think the destroyed portions of the House represent? There are the Derelict Halls to the East of the First Vestibule where everything is destroyed, and Piranesi barely talks about it,...What do you think the destroyed portions of the House represent?
There are the Derelict Halls to the East of the First Vestibule where everything is destroyed, and Piranesi barely talks about it, other than the fact that he fishes there in the lakes that form there.
There are also the various sections of the Western Halls that he mentions that have had ceilings collapse.
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club discussion - Piranesi in ~books
syllo Link ParentMy initial thought would there would be some sort of "Door of the Dead" where you could visit the souls of the dead. But I found it really interesting that they never actually talk about the other...My initial thought would there would be some sort of "Door of the Dead" where you could visit the souls of the dead. But I found it really interesting that they never actually talk about the other doors, or what useful things could be behind them, especially considering the coveted door is the one of Forgotten Knowledge.
Although maybe the side effects of the Other Worlds are related to their use. If the World of Forgotten Knowledge makes you forget things, would the Other World of Death rapidly kill you?
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club discussion - Piranesi in ~books
syllo Link ParentI would argue that the Prophet didn't even slightly redeem himself, and in fact cements him as a entirely selfish person, as what he did wasn't to help Piranesi. Helping would have just been...I would argue that the Prophet didn't even slightly redeem himself, and in fact cements him as a entirely selfish person, as what he did wasn't to help Piranesi. Helping would have just been leading Piranesi out of the House. Piranesi being saved by 16 is just a side effect of the Prophet harming the Other.
From Prophet:
Now while I have no particular wish to oblige 16 - I have no particular wish to oblige anybody - I'm all in favour of doing Ketterley an ill turn. I hate him. He's spent the last twenty-five years slandering me to anyone who would listen. So I shall give 16 copious directions to get here.
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club discussion - Piranesi in ~books
syllo Link ParentInitially, I was a bit annoyed at the random capitalization of letters, but it really grew on me. Words that are capitalized are just concepts that that are intrinsic to the House and don't come...Initially, I was a bit annoyed at the random capitalization of letters, but it really grew on me. Words that are capitalized are just concepts that that are intrinsic to the House and don't come from elsewhere. I feel like it is slightly more complex than just giving capitalization to things to make them proper nouns like how "Other" is capitalized when referring to Val.
Randomly scanned until I found a sentence with an egregious amount of capitalization for an example:
The Beams of the Declining Sun shone through the Windows of the Lower Halls, striking the Surface of the Waves and making ripples of golden Light flow across the Ceiling of the Staircase and over the Faces of the Statues
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club discussion - Piranesi in ~books
syllo LinkWhat other worlds do people think existed behind the other doors that aren't described?All around me doors into other world's began appearing but I knew the one I wanted, the one into which everything forgotten flows. The edges of that door were frayed and worn by the passage of old ideas leaving this world.
What other worlds do people think existed behind the other doors that aren't described?
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club discussion - Piranesi in ~books
syllo Link ParentThat's interesting, because I had the opposite reaction. I really wanted Piranesi to stay in the House, and was scared for him to leave as there was the potential for the Piranesi personality to...That's interesting, because I had the opposite reaction. I really wanted Piranesi to stay in the House, and was scared for him to leave as there was the potential for the Piranesi personality to be destroyed if Matthew took back over. In my mind, Matthew was already "dead" and bringing him back would only cause suffering for the both of them as Matthew's mind would be broken like Poor James Ritter's mind.
Piranesi was the only one truly able to see the wonder in the House, and if he was no longer able to do that, there would probably never be another person able to explore as much as him without condemning them to mental collapse as well.
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club discussion - Piranesi in ~books
syllo Link ParentRegarding the House, I found it was such a great choice to have Piranesi label the rooms in such a systematic fashion that initially leaves the reader the impression that the House is well laid...Regarding the House, I found it was such a great choice to have Piranesi label the rooms in such a systematic fashion that initially leaves the reader the impression that the House is well laid out. If he can remember how to get everywhere, and the Halls are labelled so easily (E.g. Sixth North-Western Hall), how complicated can it be? Then we see the outsiders referring to it as the Labyrinth, and then when we see some actual directions between locations, it's not as simple as "go through Second hall to Third hall, then to Fourth Hall," and instead it's more of each Hall having multiple doors leading to multiple different places. Piranesi has just become so in tune with the House at this point where we forget about getting lost is even a possibility.
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club discussion - Piranesi in ~books
syllo Link ParentI think the statues are the The Great and Secret Knowledge. The Other spent so much time looking for it, when the answer was all around him the whole time, and he didn't even care about them. Each...I think the statues are the The Great and Secret Knowledge. The Other spent so much time looking for it, when the answer was all around him the whole time, and he didn't even care about them. Each statue in the House represents a different person in the real world. In the last section, he is able to match people he sees in the real world with the various statues from the House, and he can see their true self. The House can even send messages via the Statues with the birds' help. I really enjoyed seeing the bird's prophecy come to fruition. "A message from afar. Obscure Writing. Innocence eroded." He finds the letter in the first Vestibule, he finds the scraps of paper from his Journal, and then he has a discussion with the Other about how the Other would kill Piranesi if Piranesi goes mad.
-
Comment on Tildes Book Club discussion - Piranesi in ~books
syllo LinkI really enjoyed this book. The first page had me thinking it was going to be a rough start, to the point I took a picture of the first page to make fun of it later, since it reminded me of the...I really enjoyed this book. The first page had me thinking it was going to be a rough start, to the point I took a picture of the first page to make fun of it later, since it reminded me of the XKCD comic about authors making up words. No made up words, but the flowery description of the year, along with a ton of words being capitalized made me think it was going to be that style of book. I'm glad I was proven wrong as only a few pages later with the section titled "A list of all of the people who have ever lived and what is known of them" really clicked with me, and instead of all the capitalized words being some overwrought fantasy society with weird rules, it's just how some person is making sense of an incomprehensible world.
I enjoyed how we find out bits and pieces from his interactions with the Other and how Piranesi is incapable of piecing together some clues because of how the House affects his memory. I found it highly amusing when he was listing the things that the Other gave him and one of them was a ham and cheese sandwich, since as the reader, to this point, we only know about seaweed, fish and mussels for nutrients and Piranesi has no questions about where a ham and cheese sandwich came from?
I was a little disappointed in how the mystery of the house is resolved, with the information just being given to us via Piranesi's journal entries and eventual escape to the real world. I'm a sucker for interesting worldbuilding and figuring out how things work, so to just being given the answers, and the answer effectively being "Pagan magic rituals are real" rubbed me the wrong way. It reminded me how I felt reading the last quarter of Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" where we had a ton of really cool worldbuilding and interesting mystery stuff is going on, and then the explanation for everything is similarly out of left field.
And I think that was why I was disappointed when the real world was introduced (I think specifically when we saw that his journal was labeled 2012), because all I wanted was a cozy exploration adventure throughout the House and all of it's various wonders. He finds a tree leaf in the water at one point, and we never get to know where it came from.
That being said, I did really like the ending that Piranesi himself got. Throughout the entire book, you kind of know he was trapped there and his memory is being messed with, but at the same time he is so peaceful and happy. Piranesi realizing he is actually two consciousness's in one, with Matthew being asleep inside himself made me happy, as the consciousness of Piranesi's is it's own separate thing, and is happy in it's own right. (Although, someone with two personalities saying "Neither he nor I had ever been mad" made me laugh). "Saving" him by bringing him to the real world would potentially just kill him to bring Matthew back. So when he does actually go back, we instead get a third consciousness that is a combination of the other two, while the other two still being discreet in his mind (In the real world there's some quotes along the lines of "Piranesi wants to say: ..."). Also, it made me happy that Poor James Ritter (always with the "Poor" title) gets a somewhat happier ending with Piranesi bringing him back to the House and him crying with joy.
I also loved that aspect of it! I kind of want to add some of their swears to my own language, if it wouldn't make me look weird to do so. The "profiteer" and "propertarian" were good, but I also really liked when people would say "Stop Egoizing!" Even the act of being egocentric is taboo for them, just as owning property is.